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welcome just put Nick orbiting the world
with me George Galloway in me
Gayatri there's an awful lot of
corruption in Brazil but only some of it
is punished and punished by those who
are themselves spectacularly corrupt
first the President Dilma Rousseff was
ousted on corruption allegations and now
her predecessor and very likely her
successor Lula has been jailed for
almost 10 years
on separate corruption charges and the
current president timur
who was instrumental in setting both of
them up is now himself embroiled in
corruption allegations though his
parliamentary colleagues have exculpated
him from those predictably it would be
difficult to make any or all of that up
so joining us to make some sense of it
is Orlando da Rocha he'll was a
specialist in Brazilian affairs Orlando
welcome to the sputnik just set it in
context for the viewers would you what
in general has Lula been accused and did
now convicted of he's been accused of so
called passive corruption no evidence or
has been been presented but he's been
passively and allowing some with a
triplex apartment but it's not even in
his name there's no documents there's no
evidence and even the Serge immoral the
the judge said he has conviction that
he's guilty but there is no proof it's
for most people a spectacularly
politically motivated motivated
prosecution because Lula remains the
most popular single politician in the
country it's quite likely not certain
but quite likely that had he been able
to run for president he would have won
and moreover that he's the only person
in his party the Workers Party that
could win so it's a
it's at the very least and extremely
convenient set of allegations isn't it
he's got a 30% lead on the most recent
poll and but but he can still run for
president some weird thing about this
sentence he hasn't been jailed he's been
sentenced and he can legally can still
run for president
I think when you look at what's
happening in Brazil there are two
different manners of looking at this one
is that this is just a blip an interval
in Brazilian Democratic process and that
you can wait to the second instance and
he because on the the judge surgeon
world who hasn't presented any evidence
he Lula will come out free from this I
don't agree with that I think that's the
the the more correct way of looking at
it is is that this is a very serious
crisis in Brazil and Brazil is going
through very exceptional times where the
Constitution has been violated
Dilma as you pointed out was um was
impeached for for a silly little fiscal
peddling
yeah which any politician any here in a
grassy area yeah it's just fiddling with
the budget to make it look like it
without any personal game there's no
there's no game personal game therefore
she can even run for Senator in the next
elections she hasn't been imprisoned or
anything so the problem is raised more
much more serious so I think if anyone's
just looking at this as a legal of mine
illegal situation that Lula will go out
free what will happen the second
instance will depend a lot more on what
happens in the streets of how the social
movements trade unions and the left can
organize themselves - well first of all
to make sure that Lula's freed and also
that there are elections because whether
there are elections in 2018 is not a
guaranteed thing because I think what is
in Brazil is a realignment of the ruling
class in Brazil there was a crisis in
2011 that's when I mean when the 20 2007
2008 financial crisis hits Brazil in
2011 and the the the process that Lula
tried implementing which is reforms
without really confronting neoliberalism
allowing like the finance minister is
still the same he was he's the the same
one that was in Lula was in the Dilma
and is now with Tamara he's still there
implementing neoliberal policies except
the only problem now is that this is
neoliberal policies without any social
gain I mean forget any sort of legal
rights social contract that's gone
that's out of the women at the pink
tights movement in yes that's a pink tie
tell me the Petersons oh yeah the so
called pink tide which was how do you
get social reforms without confronting
neoliberalism and that's without Gaunt I
just got out just gone out it's gone out
it was tilde before they tried yet yes I
have been King Canute on to be here yeah
this way of one come in you know no now
all of these sectors that you described
are all very badly divided the left is
often divided in many parts of the world
of course but in Brazil it seems to me
that the left is divided the social
movements divided and the trade unions
divided to the detriment of all 3m are
right you are right and I think that is
a consequence of the arm of the option
of not confronting and are not directly
confronting your liberalism you you in
some ways left the social movement you
dis occupied the streets and as you know
politics does not like vacuum and that
was occupied by the the right-wing and
even
fascist groups in Brazil about what's
happening now it is a crisis I mean of a
more tolerant society a democratic
society that process is is finished and
what I think is trying it was first of
all get rid of Dilma and now make sure
that Lula can't run for president is the
closing of this coup and the realignment
of the ruling class in Brazil that is
the project and I think the elite in
Brazil are united in this project
although they might not know who will be
eating it will it be Tamara will it be
my that that's not clear who's going to
be the person there but they are united
on not allowing Lula because as you said
he is the he is the main candidate in
the Workers Party the Workers Party is
still the only political party that has
a national arm net branches everywhere I
mean it is a national party other there
is no other party on the on the Left
that can really transform in all the
country to the elevator the poor which
is both of Amelia yeah definitely
definitely I mean the bolsa família the
quota system in which allowed people of
African descent or managed in indigenous
or went to state schools that would we
allowed places in federal universities
this project book that led students
study abroad there were loads of things
that did it did improve in what's
important about this it did improve but
it wasn't anything revolutionary it's
very Social Democrat in the sense and it
was a tiny percentage of the GDP was
when the 3% of GDP went to these
spending but that was enough to bring up
the the to finish poverty but Brazil was
taken out of the map of poverty well
sounds use the French Revolution they
did of course a pain that those who have
make a revolution
are digging their own graves and in a
sense that's what you're describing here
now isn't it because Lula and the
Workers Party have made a revolution
they frighten the horses and the ruling
class and now it may be that they are
headed for the political grave unless
you think the street can move
sufficiently to frighten the ruling
class back yeah to make them back off
allow Lula to run be elected as
president and be just a social
democratic as he was last time yes yes
but not to the Social Democratic I think
that his project then that what they
call loonies new that's finished because
it because of you have to look at this
in an international contest new
liberalism has run its course all over
the world I went to a debate lecture
with Lord Turner and he pointed out that
in the last 10 years in the United
States only now has four percent its GDP
is four percent greater than 2007
Britain is only one percent in the
history of capitalism this has never
happened you've never had a decade of
very very slow growth in talked about in
that European Union it was really good
it's stagnant so this this new
liberalism is is that the project is
finished it does that's what you call
the social contract between I mean
capitalism we've always known that
capitalism creates this equality but the
poor have managed to get improved
themselves and in Brazil the same thing
I mean the the rich did get richer but
the poor got less poor but that's over
that's finished every and and I think
the way it translates into Brazil in
Latin America is the end of this the
pink tide project so what you said is
correct I think we have to make sure
that Lula and I think the left in Brazil
have to do that make sure that Lula is
the next president he is candid because
the ticket that you can win but it has
to come from below it has to come from
movement in the streets and a very
strong anti austerity project that that
well maybe they can learn from Britain
we do but you really taken the words
right of my heart would have thunk it
that the British Labour Party leader
might be someone was studying yeah or
revolutionary movements I wouldn't say
that America so you know what are you
confident or are you pessimistic I'm
confident because it's in my nature but
and I think I think there has been
demonstrations that this happens like
the occupation of schools by very young
kids I mean these kids as young as
fourteen occupying schools to prevent
the cuts in education and so there is
potential for this but these movements
so on because the the left as you said
are all splintered up trade union
movement is splintered up it if they can
get there together there is a lot of
potential and in Brazil's had their
second general strike and the general
strike were very successful street
general strikes I mean you're talking
about general strike in a country the
size of Europe so it's like having a
general strike in London you Charles go
on well Jack was a country thank you
very much indeed Orlando vacation Inc
you on the sputnik coming up a veritable
giant of stage and screen stay tuned
you
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welcome back to Sputnik he has a list of
film credits as long as your arm from
Indiana Jones to Midnight Express
although he'll always be the wily
ambassador of Qumran Austin in yes Prime
Minister for me
he's now appearing in the great outdoors
in Regent's Park open air theater in
Charles Dickens epic tale of two cities
he's the world's most famous Armenian
he's a political rebel and fighter of
the best causes so why wouldn't we
welcome him onboard the sputnik the
great the truly one and only Cavour
malakian give orchids an honor to have
you here let's start if we may with the
open air performance which we've seen
and which is truly magnificent it was
the best of times it was the worst of
times it's a far far greater thing I do
than I have ever done before these words
ring out across the ages how does it
feel to be on stage amongst all these
giant containers in the Regent's Park
open air theater extremely trying
because it is not an easy set at all and
I think I can easily say it's probably
the hardest production I've worked on
but it is also possibly the best and the
nicest production I've worked on because
of the storyline of course it's 200
years since l Vicens wrote A Tale of Two
Cities
but the adaptation by Matthew Dunster I
think is wonderful the fact that it
applies he's brought the story back to
the world today
exactly way the world is today and we
sure absolutely and we share the world
today and we go back to the 18th century
as the world wars and the sad thing is
that nothing has changed yeah yeah
between the event VG's and Maria Valente
assassinated these containers obviously
represent Calais of the Palestinian
refugees and the Syrian in Jordan or the
Syrian refugees in Turkey so yes it is
absolute sheer pleasure I think it's a
wonderful production a great cast and
beautifully directed I think painful in
many ways yes to have true I sound
listen to my words at the end of it it
was so powerful and this they are till
5th of August so people still got a
chance to see it but as you alluded to
there
not that much has changed really there's
still two cities in every two cities are
still two countries in every country and
the world is still ill divide it it is
remarkable I was thinking of after I saw
your production after all that upheaval
and revolution and political change and
we're now in the centenary of the
Russian Revolution the great October
Revolution and so on
actually we're now back in a world
there's not that much different from the
one that existed as enzymes that Dickens
was writing alive absolutely sir we keep
hearing and and we have over many many
years since I was born and we keep
yearning for a better world that one day
one day governments will learn
politicians will money men will learn et
cetera but it seems as if the world
doesn't learn and sounds little will
look at any fair yeah you know early we
turkeys to hope for Christmas and and
the voters vote for people who are
actually against their own interests but
that's another another matter
as I said you're the world's most famous
Armenian but you are actually one very
very nice for your meat a lot more
famous Armenians than me well lovely of
you coming from you it has to be true
thanks as I say you what you're you're
never more dangerous than when you were
being perfectly charming that's what the
independent theater review of your Yes
Prime Minister actually said and Wiley
I'm embarrassed and very bad here the
the the situation that were in in Turkey
is fraught let's put it no higher than
that you still come and go there you've
got an important film festival with all
your films coming up showing you've got
a book coming out but there's no point
in denying is that for intellectuals for
the cultural milieu in Turkey for the
political class and for the mass of the
people that are they are beset by many
many problems in contemporary Turkey of
course it said the Middle East is in a
huge in a huge sadly :
renessa absolutely and it has been for I
think the the trouble is and of course
there are two sides to the coins of
obviously if you live in the land if we
buy in our sort of belief and Western
sort of understanding of democracy by
getting what grid of people like Saddam
Hussein and the Libyan leader Colonel
Gaddafi etc and now the Syrian leader
and we are actually we have actually
disturbed the whole area and and how are
we going to deal with it with we've
really gone back at least these people
to some extent rule the country there
was a sort of unity that was they
coexisted in many ways Christian or
Muslim etc now it's I just don't know I
mean as a little actor I have absolutely
no idea how it's going to be solved I
think we have ruined the place for years
to come and everyone I have to be I
wasn't had lived in London since 1963
and but when I went back in 2011 and
2012 I have to say this it's obviously
these are extremely difficult times in
Turkey for everybody but particularly
for journalists writers a certain
section of the politicians who like you
dares to speak the truth and paint the
picture as it is but during everyone's
reign which has never happened before
everyone has allowed the publication of
several books on the Armenian Genocide
he has allowed discussions on television
programs
he has allowed conferences on lost
Armenians
etc but also so this is to be
appreciated to a certain extent he's
allowed he's given some land back back
to the Armenians whether they're
churches or big halls etc but
nevertheless Hrant Dink was killed
assassinated during his reign so there
are questions to be asked and I there
are questions to be asked of all
politicians leaders all of the lives of
over here oh yeah in any case you stood
up for turkish honor i will recall in
your role in the amazing film Midnight
Express
you were the Turkish prosecutor standing
up for Turkish dignity that must stand
you in some good stead yes yes yes I was
totally although the belief was at the
time that this was Armenian propaganda
money and Greek propaganda money to
paint Turkey as a as a horrible place
you know but a my my answer to them was
that prisons are prisons world over and
the people who look after the prisons
will do what they do in order to keep
the you know the system doing it but
they love me
because I stood up for a principle as
for photography I took no drugs in
Turkey no drugs trafficking in Turkey
and our prisons are absolutely wonderful
they're like halo Gardens oh they've
been the promises well yes I did and I'm
so glad you mentioned it thank you very
much I'm sure George would have
mentioned it and I had I really had the
the pleasure and the privilege to be in
the premiere and I'm very grateful to
tell you George for choosing me for the
part of Oscar Isaac's father it is a
film which I believe is 100 years too
late to be made but it was never allowed
to be made the MGM had it on their books
for years to be filmed it was never
allowed of because of pressure from
Turkey being a NATO member etc but
somehow you see again this time for the
promise there was no pressure yeah that
was on anybody so the film was made and
as I said 102 years
late but it was a I think it was a great
film it was a wonderful wonderful film
terrific cast terrifically directed and
for the first time millions all over the
world learned the true story of 1915 so
yes it's a character enormous importance
from the sublime to Indiana George how
much fun was that to me I I would think
probably the greatest fun I've had and
and Harrison Ford is such a magical
heart and wonderful generous actor and
all my scenes fortunately were with him
and also to work with Steven Spielberg
and George Lucas was just what I didn't
know and it was a wonderful wonderful
surprises when an actor does his first
scene on the film he shoots his first
scene they walk both of them walk over
to you and they say welcome to the
family which is why they know it was a
great great great experience and an
experience and that I will cherish and I
was I was kindly very generously invited
to the role premiere with Prince Charles
and Princess move in the West End now
you are in the play Tale of Two Cities
you play a 78 year old man you're in
fact a mere stripling of 74 which is
astounding to me because you look at
least 20 years younger in fact if I look
like you are half-past four I'll be
counting I have your looks an hour are
you going to are you going to work until
the end is there any prospect of you
retiring here later why I think I could
probably exist on of Olives and and
cheese and cucumber and tomatoes which
is what we grew up with in eastern
Turkey what I was born in the other
bucket but my belief is I love my
profession and as particularly the
theater but in general I love my
profession and for as long as God
enables me to keep the alertness of my
brain and the wealth of goodness health
of my body
I will go on but I think I will know the
day when I'm sure somehow I open up
resilience yes it's been an honor to
have you on the spot neck thank you sir
Alex thank you very much the privilege
is mine many things thank you thank you
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and now it's your turn to tell us what
you think through the portals of social
media what's rattling Gayatri well on
the Brazil case then there says there's
no real hope left for the left anywhere
wherever it gets a foothold the wealthy
and the market make sure of its demise
and the tales of Two Cities which know
it was the second best-selling book ever
Kentucky says seems like there are the
same unjust oppressors noble heroes and
disinterested fence sitters as always
only now there's computers and iPhones
I've never been in the presence of
anyone with the Grace and the class of
Quebec I must say and he's optimistic
about the future as was Orlando yeah I
happen to think both of them are correct
well that's all the time we've got for
the tweets which alas means that's the
end of the short but you can stay in
touch with us on Facebook Sputnik on
Russia today or Twitter and Instagram
RT underscore spot me it's goodbye for
me Gayatri and for me George Galloway
it's been marvelous
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